INTERVIEW: Paul Ginter
“My role is to help my clients begin to relate to what happens inside them differently, in a way that involves connecting with a deep compassionate and clear presence. As they find that place inside, they can begin to relate to their world with more ease, kindness, and effectiveness.”
Co-founder Paul Ginter is a licensed psychologist who serves as the Clinical Director for IFS Telehealth Collective, bringing more than 30 years of experience in Internal Family Systems. Working closely with IFS developer Richard Schwartz, Paul is an IFS Senior Lead Trainer who has traveled the globe training professionals on nearly every continent. In addition to IFS, Paul facilitates mindfulness meditation courses for businesses, conferences and clinical groups. Based in Kalamazoo, MI, Paul is also co-founder of the Center for Psychotherapy and Wellness and previously served as the Organizational Learning Officer at Fetzer Institute, a philanthropic foundation.
Get to know more of Paul’s story, and how he came to join the Collective!
Was there a single, defining moment that drew you to the mental health field?
Paul: I don’t remember a specific defining moment that brought me to this work, but remember figuring out relatively early that I wanted to move in this general direction.
After really enjoying a psychology class in high school, I pursued that as my major in college, even though I didn’t necessarily know what options there were in psychology. I was then inspired by the work of the psychologist at the college I attended, and imagined that would be a great career. I did, in fact, work at a university counseling center in Tennessee for four years, but then became interested in working with a broader range of people as well as becoming enamored with Internal Family Systems work that was mostly happening in the Chicago area at that time.
My career path hasn’t felt so much like a defining moment as a series of choices moving me along in a direction that continues to be about helping people and maintaining a fascination with the human experience.
Who or what has influenced you the most when it comes to how you approach your work?
Paul: There have been a number of people along the way that have supported me and have been formative in my personal and professional development. It’s difficult to name individual people, but I’ll say that I have been so fortunate to have many, many people that have helped me grow and develop as a therapist and as a person, including professional mentors, spiritual teachers, and friends and family.
Certainly the person who has most influenced my therapeutic work most has been the founder of IFS, Dick Schwartz.
What is it about IFS that speaks to you? Was there a particular love story with finding IFS?
Paul: It’s funny that you phrased it what way, given my initial discovery of IFS. After learning and experiencing IFS, an ex-fiance called me and said, ”I’ve been introduced to this very powerful way of doing therapy and I know that you will love it. It’s a perfect fit for you.”
As I began to read about IFS, it felt like it fit with the way I thought about the world and how I understood it to be. In my own practice, I was actually doing some things that were similar, although not nearly as effective and clear as this Model ended up being.
In discovering IFS for myself, there was an intuitive sense to it that had a deep resonance with me, and this ended up also being the case with the clients I was working with.
How long have you been involved with IFS? How did you become a trainer?
Paul: I haven't exactly added it up, but I've been involved with IFS for nearly 30 years. At the time I learned about IFS, I was working at a university in East Tennessee but then moved to Chicago to be closer to where the majority of IFS was happening at the time. I’ve since moved to Michigan and have been here for 23+ years.
In terms of becoming a trainer, I often joke that I've never been a participant in a level one training, because I was involved in the development of the first one that ever happened. I was one 4 people that Dick Schwartz asked to help out with that training in Chicago. Aside from pulling back from trainings for a couple of years due to having a job at a foundation that involved too much travel, I have been involved in trainings since they began. And of course, somewhere along the way, it became clear that Dick wasn’t able to lead all of the trainings, so others of us began to step into that role.
How have you seen IFS change over the years?
Paul: I have seen changes in the past 30 years, most of the significant ones happening early on. For example, when I lived up in Chicago, Dick Schwartz and I were connected socially in addition to through this work, and I remember one time going to a movie with our spouses. He turned to us and said, I've come up with these eight C's that are the “C’s of the Self”. He challenged us to guess what they are. My partner —who's also a psychologist— rattled off a whole bunch of them. It’s interesting thinking back, that I got to hear about the very first rendition of that. Also, I was around early enough that I was able to witness the development of the unburdening process, a process that was pioneered in large part by Michi Rose.
At that time, there was a sense that IFS was still new enough that there were still some big things to discover, which was exciting. Although that’s not to say that there aren’t still new areas for growth. The model is always developing, but I think it's subtler now. In the early years, one thing that was particularly exciting was to be doing something new where I was living, only to find that others were doing similar things elsewhere. For example, when living in Tennessee, I remember a time that I asked a client to invite in qualities after releasing burdens, only to find out that people had recently been doing that very thing in Chicago. So there was a sense that we were all stumbling upon new things.
What led you to consider joining / founding IFS-TC?
Paul: To begin, I was drawn to work with Marcella and Mariel. I was very impressed by what Marcella had created in her Kindful Body Practice and she is a really good person who I thought would be great to work with. Mariel and I had known each other for years in trainings and trainer retreats and I also thought it would be great to work with her.
But I think that in a more general way, there are two main reasons that I was drawn to be involved in the creation of IFS-TC. First, I’ve found that the kind of people that are drawn to IFS are really wonderful people, so the idea of working in a group practice and the sense of community that would bring was very appealing. I am lucky to have that experience quite a bit when I'm leading trainings, but they are time limited. It's fun to meet new people, and great to be a part of a group of people who care about the world and want to make a difference. But then the training is done and aside from a couple times a year when I meet with fellow trainers for retreats and gatherings, I don't have that ongoing sense of community through time. With IFS-TC, to have a group of people that continue to grow together in the works is a really cool thing.
Another important reason for being involved is a very practical one, stemming from how discouraging it has been to run out of people to refer IFS clients to. Most people I know have full practices, and are no longer able to take referrals. So to have access to skilled IFS therapists to help the growing demand for this work brings a sense of relief.
How have you found the transition to telehealth to be for yourself / your clients? Anything that surprised you?
Paul: It's been interesting to see that for many people, telehealth is just as good or even better than in-person therapy. Some feel more comfortable because they are in their own home. Or it may be just the fact that they're not so stressed to try to get to the office, or they can let go of any concerns that they might see somebody at the office they know. There are of course, those that really want to be doing therapy in the same room, but I have been surprised by how well it has worked for so many.
Personally, it hasn’t been a huge shift for me because I had already become comfortable with the online format of telehealth. Having served as a trainer, especially for many international trainings, working with people online is often the only way to allow people access to IFS. Especially in countries where IFS is brand new to them, they often seek out the opportunity to work with somebody that's had more experience. Whether it's consultation groups or meeting with individual supervisees, telehealth is often the only way to do that across long distances.
Why should you choose telehealth?
What part of your career are you especially proud of, that brings you the most joy when you look back at it?
Paul: Well this IFS-TC venture certainly stands out as the most unique new thing that's happening for me now. Aside from that?
Throughout the years there have been a number of things that I imagine have contributed to IFS. I feel good about being one of the first people to present and write on the compatibility of mindfulness and IFS.
More recently, I have been able to contribute to the IFS work happening in China. It is amazing what they are doing there, exposing many people to the work through an incredible system of peer support, and a website featuring IFS that has had a million viewers. Above all, I think my biggest contribution has been that as a trainer, I continue to learn all of the time, hopefully helping to deepen the work.
What behavior or personality trait do you most attribute your success to, and why?
Paul: It’s helpful that I have a strong natural curiosity which is particularly helpful in this work. That curiosity allows the work to be energizing rather than depleting.
I also have a lot of excitement and passion about this work. Sometimes my parts that get excited have me taking on too much. It’s hard to say no to things that are great opportunities. I sometimes get too busy and would like to figure out a way to slow down a bit.
What advice would you give to a younger version of yourself?
Paul: If think that is connected to what I was just saying. If I could talk to my younger self, I would say “You are a very fortunate person and you get to do a lot of exciting and fulfilling work in the world. It’s okay to let opportunities pass. You’ll get other chances.” Although I have always felt fortunate, if I could go back, I would also bring more awareness to how some of that is simply good fortune, and some of it was afforded by being a white male in this country. I wish I had been more aware of those realities sooner.
If you’re interested in IFS therapy, and live in California, New York, Florida, Massachusetts, Oregon or Michigan fill out the contact form to get connected with a clinician in your state.
If you’re a clinician trained in IFS therapy, and would like the opportunity to see clients interested in IFS, and have regular consultation with a lead trainer like Paul Ginter, contact us today to learn about joining the collective!
